3/19/12
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Your track: Work part-time (contract or consult) to fund your startup.
My track: Find a home where there are friends and hopefully family to settle down in.
Our track as a couple (some possibilities):
- No kids, nothing else, just stay together in one city so that you can start up and I can find a home.
- Find a city to settle down to raise kids
- Fly around and make money to fund living in two places. No kids.
Please feel free to add more tracks. Let's consider these possibilities and compare them.
You said you don't want to live in HK full time. Similarly, I don't want to live in Seattle full-time either (I have lived with you in Seattle for 7 years and we have proven that this route didn't lead anywhere). You keep saying you are sacrificing yourself to "make me happy", but it's still unclear about how that would be done - you are currently working on your own track of building up cash after taking a break for the startup.
So far, we both have sacrificed for your track as well as my track. Whatever we do next, please consider it a *consensual* move we make together. If you don't think it's worthwhile for you to do so, say so now - you can continue to stay on your own track and lose nothing. You just have to make it clear. Please don't whine and say you are doing it all for me, then say you don't really want to do it, and then stay exactly how we are right now. It doesn't help.
Even if we change nothing - I continue to live in Seattle so that we could stay together - we still need to figure out what goal does that achieve as a couple. Otherwise we are only staying put as I work and you figure out your startup thing, and it is likely that we find ourselves in the same situation as we are now 5 years down the road. Let's not repeat that mistake again.
We need a mutual mission as a couple.
3/19/12
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My "track":
There is a misunderstanding about my "track" that needs correction. My
purpose in working is not to fund a startup, because I do not have a
startup and I don't have have a startup idea. My goal in working is to
earn money to maintain a quality of life and fulfill my financial
responsibilities. My long term goal of running a business is to find
leverage to earn more money to deal with even bigger responsibilities
that I face in the future, such as taking care of parents, potentially
taking care of kids, and for retirement.
My track for working is to provide for the present and the future. I
spend my free time studying, experimenting, and trying new things. How
I spend my free time is not the same thing as how I spend my working
time. Phrasing my goal as "working part-time to fund your startup"
mixes two separate goals into one effort, but they are not the same.
Your "track":
I understand that your "track" is finding a home with friends, and
family. When you describe your track, it only suggests living in Hong
Kong, because I don't know of any other city where your family lives,
and or another city in which you have expressed interest in connecting
with people.
Kids:
Until our relationship is in a healthy state, I think we're not in a
good position to consider having kids, so let's talk about the
relationship...
Relationship:
We've both talked about what we need to be happy. Let's talk
specifically about what we want in a relationship in order to be happy
about the relationship. First, we need to be with someone that we want
to be with. This may sound harsh, but let's be frank about the fact
that you are not a happy person, that you are very unhappy with
yourself, and that you consider your life "over". I think your
resigned attitude about giving up with your life is premature consider
your relatively young age. It's hard to want to be in a relationship
with someone who has given up in life. I think it's possible that you
may feel better about yourself if you live in Hong Kong, but I have no
way of knowing. Can you help me figure out what we need to do in order
for you to feel better about your life enough to be in a romantic
relationship with someone?
-Sam
There is a misunderstanding about my "track" that needs correction. My
purpose in working is not to fund a startup, because I do not have a
startup and I don't have have a startup idea. My goal in working is to
earn money to maintain a quality of life and fulfill my financial
responsibilities. My long term goal of running a business is to find
leverage to earn more money to deal with even bigger responsibilities
that I face in the future, such as taking care of parents, potentially
taking care of kids, and for retirement.
My track for working is to provide for the present and the future. I
spend my free time studying, experimenting, and trying new things. How
I spend my free time is not the same thing as how I spend my working
time. Phrasing my goal as "working part-time to fund your startup"
mixes two separate goals into one effort, but they are not the same.
Your "track":
I understand that your "track" is finding a home with friends, and
family. When you describe your track, it only suggests living in Hong
Kong, because I don't know of any other city where your family lives,
and or another city in which you have expressed interest in connecting
with people.
Kids:
Until our relationship is in a healthy state, I think we're not in a
good position to consider having kids, so let's talk about the
relationship...
Relationship:
We've both talked about what we need to be happy. Let's talk
specifically about what we want in a relationship in order to be happy
about the relationship. First, we need to be with someone that we want
to be with. This may sound harsh, but let's be frank about the fact
that you are not a happy person, that you are very unhappy with
yourself, and that you consider your life "over". I think your
resigned attitude about giving up with your life is premature consider
your relatively young age. It's hard to want to be in a relationship
with someone who has given up in life. I think it's possible that you
may feel better about yourself if you live in Hong Kong, but I have no
way of knowing. Can you help me figure out what we need to do in order
for you to feel better about your life enough to be in a romantic
relationship with someone?
-Sam
3/19/12
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I realize that my last paragraph about our relationship may sound like
a repetition of our conversations, and that you may get frustrated at
me for writing it. I intended to ask the question in a constructive
way: what do we know, and what do we not know, about the assumption
that living in Hong Kong will lead to a more satisfying life to you,
and how do you test that question?
-Sam
a repetition of our conversations, and that you may get frustrated at
me for writing it. I intended to ask the question in a constructive
way: what do we know, and what do we not know, about the assumption
that living in Hong Kong will lead to a more satisfying life to you,
and how do you test that question?
-Sam
3/19/12
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I appreciate this question: what do we know, and what do we not know, about the assumption that living in Hong Kong will lead to a more satisfying life to you,
and how do you test that question? Here's my answer about two aspects that would help me break out from our trapped state and have a shot at a happier life:
and how do you test that question? Here's my answer about two aspects that would help me break out from our trapped state and have a shot at a happier life:
- Have some (real) options other than staying in Seattle, working, and have no clue about what I am doing with my life and what we are doing with our life together.
- Other than living in Seattle and working, we do not have any other options in real terms. We looked into SF, but then overruled it. We talked about HK (part-time or full-time), but you keep telling me you don't want to do it and we have yet to take any action or find any realistic arrangement for this option. We are just fighting. The overwhelming force is still to stay put, without any reason or objectives behind it. How can one be happy or have hope when one has no real ways out other than the status quo that doesn't work?
- Have social support and a goal with you as a couple.
- When I was younger I didn't understand that every human being needed social, family, professional support and a mission in life to live a healthy life. Without these any personal ambition or pursuit would eventually render empty or meaningless. I won't be able to be a basic human being and have any dreams/hopes without having family/friend and a goal in our marriage. You may be able to do that but I can't. I don't think I am unreasonable because I need friends/family and a mission in a marriage to feel fulfilled. That's what every normal human being wants and need. I haven't had it for years.
- Also, I resent that you continue to put the responsibility of our happiness on my shoulder. You are *just* as unhappy about moving to Hong Kong as I am in living in Seattle. You are *just* as clueless about our future or your own track as I am. You often feel *just* as resigned about the situation as I am. The unhappiness is not one-sided and we are both responsible for getting here. It only seems like I am more responsible because I am the one living in a life that happen to be more natural for you (working in Seattle), so I am to one to blame as the one making changes to this. It is an illusion that if we can "fix" my unhappiness than we will automatically be happy together. That's like solving only one side of the Rubik's cube and consider that a solution - the other sides are still messed up. Until we realize that the only solution lies in finding a solution that we are *both* be satisfied with, not just me, but both of us, we will never have an fruitful conversation.
Conclusion: the real question is not to HK or not to HK, the question is how can we set up a life where we can both have 1. friends, 2. family, 3. our own tracks and 4. a mission in marriage we can both work together to achieve as a couple. The 1,2,3,4, are metrics to measure whether a solution (HK or flying around or whatever) will be successful. With these we have a shot to happiness. Without these we can still function, like we had in the past 7 years, but it'd be like having a hand covering our eyes as we live out our lives doing one thing or another. That's the fundamental reason why I am unhappy or unromantic.
3/19/12
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I think it's possible that you may feel better about yourself if you live in Hong Kong, but I have no way of knowing. Can you help me figure out what we need to do in order for you to feel better about your life enough to be in a romantic relationship with someone?
This is the very reason why our conversation is in a bottleneck forever. Whatever conversation we have, you always end up with this question: how can you prove to me that you are going to be happy if I make a move to Hong Kong. This is *ridiculous* because it's the same as saying: "Prove to me that this software will definitely make money otherwise I won't invest any time building it".
You spent the past 5 years working on startups that you had no idea whether they would pay off. You had *no way of knowing* whether they would work until you put in the time to test out your idea, but you put in the time anyway. For HK you have yet to spare even a month testing the idea. You said, "you would have done it" or "we are doing / will do anything to make you happy". But at the end of each conversation, you just end up asking the same question "how do I know if it would work?" Then, the conversation would be stuck; no action would be taken.
So why would you invest 5 years and more in startups without knowing whether they would pay off, and wouldn't invest in a change in us until I can prove to you, all by myself, that it's definitely going to pay off? The only conclusion I can draw on, since it happens again and again, over and over, is that you have an interest in the former and no interest in the latter. We talk about HK, but it's not really on the table; It's a false choice.
You can stay in Seattle for the rest of your life asking "how would I know if it would work? Prove it to me." You would always be right: you will never know by staying in Seattle. I can never prove it to you alone, without you being in the journey. And you can have the satisfaction of being right. It's a catch 22.
3/19/12
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We've both talked about what we need to be happy. Let's talkwith someone who has given up in life. I think it's possible that you
specifically about what we want in a relationship in order to be happy
about the relationship. First, we need to be with someone that we want
to be with. This may sound harsh, but let's be frank about the fact
that you are not a happy person, that you are very unhappy with
yourself, and that you consider your life "over". I think your
resigned attitude about giving up with your life is premature consider
your relatively young age. It's hard to want to be in a relationshipmay feel better about yourself if you live in Hong Kong, but I have no
way of knowing. Can you help me figure out what we need to do in order
for you to feel better about your life enough to be in a romantic
relationship with someone?
I understand what you are trying to say in this paragraph. First you set up that premise that you only want to be with one you want to be with. Then you say you wouldn't want to be with an unhappy person. Then, you ask me to prove to you that I will be a happy person (and I have to prove it alone, you have nothing to do with it). If I can't prove it (which I can't because it's a catch 22), then your premise will kick in to make the case that I am not the one you want to be with.
The conclusion is inevitable using your logic, isn't it?
3/20/12
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Defining success enables you to evaluate situations and make choices.
Goals help you measure progress and clarify when you need to invest
more or change plans. So I am not trying to impose a catch-22, I am
trying to discuss measurable goals.
You're right that we have yet to spend time living in Hong Kong. So,
we will spend time living in Hong Kong. I have agreed to it. The
decision to do so is clear: because we have to try. What remains is
answering how we will try and towards what goal will we try.
If you still want to compare working on startups to moving to Hong
Kong, then the comparison needs to consider many factors other than
time spent, in order to be a useful comparison. In a startup, you
invest time and the opportunity cost is time. In moving to another
country, the investment is money and time, and the opportunity costs
are much higher: career, network, industry access, income,
infrastructure, quality of life (at least for me). While doing
startups, I continued providing for the majority of our financial
obligations, stayed on the cutting edge of our industry, and lived
within a social infrastructure that I understand well. Moving to
another country is not the same thing as NOT doing a startup... it is
moving to another country, period. I am not objecting to living in
Hong Kong in this email... I am asking you to consider what you're
comparing, and asking us to discuss goals/tradeoffs, you know?
-Sam
Goals help you measure progress and clarify when you need to invest
more or change plans. So I am not trying to impose a catch-22, I am
trying to discuss measurable goals.
You're right that we have yet to spend time living in Hong Kong. So,
we will spend time living in Hong Kong. I have agreed to it. The
decision to do so is clear: because we have to try. What remains is
answering how we will try and towards what goal will we try.
If you still want to compare working on startups to moving to Hong
Kong, then the comparison needs to consider many factors other than
time spent, in order to be a useful comparison. In a startup, you
invest time and the opportunity cost is time. In moving to another
country, the investment is money and time, and the opportunity costs
are much higher: career, network, industry access, income,
infrastructure, quality of life (at least for me). While doing
startups, I continued providing for the majority of our financial
obligations, stayed on the cutting edge of our industry, and lived
within a social infrastructure that I understand well. Moving to
another country is not the same thing as NOT doing a startup... it is
moving to another country, period. I am not objecting to living in
Hong Kong in this email... I am asking you to consider what you're
comparing, and asking us to discuss goals/tradeoffs, you know?
-Sam
