Chat with Samuel Wan

1:51 PM me: i am here

  so it looks like these files are no go

 Samuel: yeah

 me: you know what, maybe we can do without today

1:52 PM Samuel: do you need me to bring your laptop out to HK?

 me: sorry you had to tried so many different things...

  if you don't mind. i'd appreciate it

  sorry about everything

  thanks.

 Samuel: where do you want to meet?

1:53 PM me: at the eating place. where we are having dinner tonight. that's fine

  you don't have to bring it to me now. no worries

 Samuel: ok.

 me: thank you very much. enjoy the rest of the day. i think i am fine for today.

1:54 PM thank you

 Samuel: ok, see you

Something to consider: End states - I don't remember these at all. What's wrong with me?????

Alice Hoiyin Lo <hlo@lohoiyin.com>	8/31/12
to Samuel

Hi Sam,

Before you come to Hong Kong, we have a little bit of space; I am thinking this could be a good time to think through what we are about to do next.

It would be important to think about the "end states" . I understand we are still figuring things out, and I know that things are difficult right now. But without some kind of goals, especially goals we want to pursue *together*, we are just wasting time. And I really don't want to waste your time here.

Specifically, we both need to answer 2 questions:

• Assuming it's possible, where do we want to live for both of us to feel comfortable - would this be one place or two places?
• What has to happen for this to be possible?
• How to create a comfortable living environment for us both?
• What are the "deal-offs" - unacceptable states?
• How are we going to take care of our parents in the place(s) we are going to reside?

• Assuming we want to and have the resources, where do we want to have children? 
• How many will we want? 
• Can we adopt? 
• When is a good time to do this?
• What has to happen for this to be possible?
• What are the "deal-offs" - unacceptable states?
• I know having children is optional, but it's *critical* that we think ahead for this situation. We can consider the option of never having kids, but that should be the conclusion after we think through all the scenarios (having kids, adopting later, never have kids, etc.)

I will answer these questions too. I am assuming we want to do everything to make things work out, and only consider separating as the last resort. 

These really should be questions that we answer together when we got married, but we never got around to this. At this crossroad, we need to (finally) answer these questions. If we know each other's bottomlines, we'll know where we stand better instead of engaging in endlessly frustrating blaming discussions that don't go anywhere... We've always considered what we want for ourselves first, then what we should do together. By turning it around to first consider "common end states" that involve others like kids and family, I think it'd help illuminate our future path tremendously.

Again, I know this is hard, but it's necessary. This thinking belongs to the pile of "urgent and important". Even if you don't know entirely what it's like to live in HK, you can still figure out your bottom-lines and long-term goals. It's better we do this now when we have some individual space, than when you are here and need to adopt and work and stuff... Hope you'd would work with me on these.

I really appreciate that you come to Hong Kong. ^^

Loving thoughts,

Alice

Samuel Wan <sam@samuelwan.com>	9/2/12
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Here is my first pass...

> Assuming it's possible, where do we want to live for both of us to feel
> comfortable - would this be one place or two places?

One place.

> What has to happen for this to be possible?

Reliable revenue. Residential and work status.

> How to create a comfortable living environment for us both?

Nice place to live, not necessarily big, but pleasant. Hardwood or
tiled floors to prevent allergies. Quick access to groceries,
services, transportation.

> What are the "deal-offs" - unacceptable states?

Unacceptable: Your dissatisfaction with your life. A stupid job.
Wasting time commuting. Lack of passion in relationship and in sex (or
even just lack of sex). Wanting me to change to fit into a desired
lifestyle or social group. Lack of creativity and access to
opportunities.

> How are we going to take care of our parents in the place(s) we are going to
> reside?

In 3 years, I will probably need to visit my parents on a regular
basis due to their health. In 5 years, I will need to spend frequent
time with them. I need to help them financially, but the biggest
resource they will need from me is my attention to getting things done
for them on a practical level.

> Assuming we want to and have the resources, where do we want to have
> children?
> How many will we want?
> Can we adopt?
> When is a good time to do this?
> What has to happen for this to be possible?
> What are the "deal-offs" - unacceptable states?
> I know having children is optional, but it's *critical* that we think ahead
> for this situation. We can consider the option of never having kids, but
> that should be the conclusion after we think through all the scenarios
> (having kids, adopting later, never have kids, etc.)

Any discussion of these details bypass some critical assumptions.
First of all, we need to ask whether we want to have kids together.
Kids come after sex, sex comes after love, love comes after trust. We
have a long way to go before we can have kids, so I'm disturbed that
you've gone from 10 years of saying "I never want to have kids" to now
bringing up all these details. The bottom line for me is that we need
to have a healthy relationship and a healthy state of mind before kids
are even a possibility. Given your depression and my bitterness, we
have other things to work on first.

Alice Hoiyin Lo <hlo@lohoiyin.com>	9/2/12
to Samuel

You have only responded what you want happen but not how we are going to *make* these things happen. Could you respond to the how part? That's very important.

On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 7:20 AM, Samuel Wan <sam@samuelwan.com> wrote:

Here is my first pass...

> Assuming it's possible, where do we want to live for both of us to feel
> comfortable - would this be one place or two places?

S: One place.

    H: Where? Why one? 

> What has to happen for this to be possible?

S: Reliable revenue. Residential and work status.

H: What does that mean?

> How to create a comfortable living environment for us both?

S: Nice place to live, not necessarily big, but pleasant. Hardwood or

tiled floors to prevent allergies. Quick access to groceries,
services, transportation.

H: Agreed.

> What are the "deal-offs" - unacceptable states?

S: Unacceptable: Your dissatisfaction with your life. A stupid job.

Wasting time commuting. Lack of passion in relationship and in sex (or
even just lack of sex). Wanting me to change to fit into a desired
lifestyle or social group. Lack of creativity and access to
opportunities.

    H: Please refer to my other reply to your "all i do is hack" email for main source of my unhappiness. If that's addressed holistically, then I'll be happy because we will actually be in a complete and healthy relationship.

> How are we going to take care of our parents in the place(s) we are going to
> reside?

In 3 years, I will probably need to visit my parents on a regular
basis due to their health. In 5 years, I will need to spend frequent
time with them. I need to help them financially, but the biggest
resource they will need from me is my attention to getting things done
for them on a practical level.

H: Agreed. By 'how' I meant how do we support this goal (physically and financially) though. My parents need to be taken into account too.

> Assuming we want to and have the resources, where do we want to have
> children?
> How many will we want?
> Can we adopt?
> When is a good time to do this?
> What has to happen for this to be possible?
> What are the "deal-offs" - unacceptable states?
> I know having children is optional, but it's *critical* that we think ahead
> for this situation. We can consider the option of never having kids, but
> that should be the conclusion after we think through all the scenarios
> (having kids, adopting later, never have kids, etc.)

S: Any discussion of these details bypass some critical assumptions.

First of all, we need to ask whether we want to have kids together.
Kids come after sex, sex comes after love, love comes after trust. We
have a long way to go before we can have kids, so I'm disturbed that
you've gone from 10 years of saying "I never want to have kids" to now
bringing up all these details. The bottom line for me is that we need
to have a healthy relationship and a healthy state of mind before kids
are even a possibility. Given your depression and my bitterness, we
have other things to work on first.

   H: Please read the evolution of our conflicts in the past 12 year in the other email (end of email). If you read it through, you'll realize that our relationship do change and we do take on (reluctantly and unpreparedly) more and more challenges and responsibilities over time. Like I said, the answer could you "I don't want any kids", but everything should be considered and we should think ahead. Our past mistakes were largely due to not thinking ahead. The model of "let's do a little bit, see what happens, then decide the next move" isn't working. This exercise is about: "let's figure out the end games first, then decide how to get there". It's about long-term strategy. Please think what we want about kids and let's see if we can work together to get there, assuming we have the trust, love and sex. If we can't even if we have the trust, love and sex, that says a lot too, right?

Alice Hoiyin Lo <hlo@lohoiyin.com>	9/2/12
to Samuel

Let me put it this way: we have gotten into an arrangement for our relationship where we both feel like we are giving without getting anything back. Love erodes and the sex suffers as a result (no lust for sex if you don't have lust for life).

It's like a prisoner's dilemma game where the payoffs are only punishments, prompting us to abuse and blame each other and feel hopeless. Or like how the bankers behaving destructively to the financial world because the unregulated derivative market was motivating them to do so.

Just wanting me to shut up and be happy and be sexy without asking any questions is not going to work anymore (pardon my bluntness). Even when you try to get a kid to do something healthy for him/her, you need to be able to get the kid to see how it's going to benefit him/her.

The only way to improve this situation, as I see it, is to change the payoffs so we have the motives and leisure to be loving with each other. To to so, for me at least, we need to know what we want to do, where we can put efforts so we can work together towards the goals. That way, even if the process is hard, we have a common vision to work with and can feel a sense of comradeship and accomplishment, even if nothing else, when we get closer to the goals.

Alice Hoiyin Lo <hlo@lohoiyin.com>	9/9/12
to Samuel

My pass at this. Please give these some thoughts. Thanks.

Cheers,

Alice

On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 10:51 AM, Alice Hoiyin Lo <hlo@lohoiyin.com> wrote:

Hi Sam,

Before you come to Hong Kong, we have a little bit of space; I am thinking this could be a good time to think through what we are about to do next.

It would be important to think about the "end states" . I understand we are still figuring things out, and I know that things are difficult right now. But without some kind of goals, especially goals we want to pursue *together*, we are just wasting time. And I really don't want to waste your time here.

Specifically, we both need to answer 2 questions:

• Assuming it's possible, where do we want to live for both of us to feel comfortable - would this be one place or two places?

Two place: US and HK, each a few months 

• What has to happen for this to be possible?

We both need to be successful independent contractor or businesspeople 

• How to create a comfortable living environment for us both?

Get a small but comfortable place in both US and Lamma, HK 

• What are the "deal-offs" - unacceptable states?

One person has to stay in a place solely for the other person reluctantly and grudgingly. 

Either of us doesn't agree that we need to make more money to support this goal.

• How are we going to take care of our parents in the place(s) we are going to reside?

We can take care of our parents physically (physical connection > emotional connection) while we live near them.

We will also need to support them financially by each giving our own parents monthly contributions.

• Assuming we want to and have the resources, where do we want to have children? 

Both HK and US. 

Ex. for the first few years, they could stay in HK where there are people to help take care of them.

In later years, they could stay in US for school and come to HK during summer and winter vacation

College in US

• How many will we want? 

 0-2

• Can we adopt? 

I want to adopt, but I am open to having our own kids in the right circumstances and the resources 

• When is a good time to do this?

We need to plan ahead now - esp if we want our own children 

• What has to happen for this to be possible?

We have to be loving for each other and children

We have to make time to take care of them

We have to make enough money to support them

• What are the "deal-offs" - unacceptable states?

Not meeting any of the above 3 conditions 

Please let me know what else you need before you come

Alice Hoiyin Lo <hlo@lohoiyin.com>	9/8/12
to Samuel

This is what I have so far. Let me know if there's anything else:

1. Bedding stuff - move into Lamma over next weekend
2. Wireless connection (cable guy comes Mon 9/17 10-1pm)
3. Visa

Samuel Wan <sam@samuelwan.com>	9/8/12
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Let me know if you need me to buy anything (small) from here.

Sent from my iPhone

Alice Hoiyin Lo <hlo@lohoiyin.com>	9/9/12
to Samuel

Not for me, but could you find out from Misha one more time what the cats need? It may be easier to call and order from Portland.

Thanks,

Hoiyin

Alice Hoiyin Lo <hlo@lohoiyin.com>	9/9/12
to Samuel

Btw, you may be interested in this dance event next Sat:

http://www.meetup.com/The-Hong-Kong-Expats/events/80579912/